Simon Oates played John Steed in the short-lived stage production of The Avengers. Best known as John Ridge in the BBC's environmental thriller series, Doomwatch, Simon Oates enjoyed a long and celebrated career in the performing arts. He made his popular breakthrough in the BBC thriller series, The Mask of Janus and the Spies, before making memorable guest appearances in The Three Musketeers and several ITC series, appearing alongside such luminaries as Jeremy Brett, Peter Wyngarde and Richard Bradford. He also guest starred in The Avengers episodes, You Have Just Been Murdered and Super Secret Cypher Snatch and, in The New Avengers, Hostage.

On Saturday 1st November 2008, Simon and his lovely wife Jaki kindly welcomed Alan and Alys Hayes of The Avengers Declassified into their home in East Sussex to conduct the following interview.

Maybe we should start off with your earliest days in acting, Simon. How did you get your big break in the profession?

"I was at Drama School and we were invited to be in a Mystery play at the Everyman with Robert Eddison. I was seeing a girl at the time who was actually a pro actress. She was working at Chesterfield for Gerry Glaister, who became a big TV producer and director, and she met me and saw this, knowing I wanted to turn pro. Her father, who was very wealthy, had arranged for her to have her own repertory company for a period of time. She said, 'I'll tell you what, you were my leading man in my company, and I'll give you a list of the plays that you did', which of course I hadn't done at all! She went back to Chesterfield, where she was a juvenile lady, met Gerry and recommended me to him. He took her word for it and so I started in Chesterfield on 18th July 1954 in a play called Someone at the Door. I went up there as a fully fledged actor only having done amateur stuff before, but I blagged my way through it and that's how I started. Fortnightly rep at Chesterfield, York, Birmingham and all over the place in various rep companies."

Did you find rep gave you a strong grounding in the business and helped you later when you came to work in television and film?

"Totally. You had a week to learn your lines and moves, then you played them. When you were playing them, you were rehearsing the next week's play. You were in rehearsal at ten o'clock until five o'clock, then on stage at half past seven. When you went home, you learned the next day's act, which used to take me until about one in the morning. It was hard, but if you could do it, you could do it. But it was, obviously, great experience for a young actor. If you've done four years or so in rep, nothing can happen on stage that you hadn't already had to deal with in that learning curve. As for television, I treated it exactly the same, except I didn't have to talk so loud to reach the back of the gallery!"

Did you have a particular approach to acting?

"I wasn't a method actor, I was a me actor. I remember doing one rep show and I went on and tried to play myself. I'd thought about all the big stars. If you saw John Wayne, you wanted to see John Wayne. When you went to see the stars, they were who you wanted to see. The character they were playing may have been interesting, but you went to see the man. So, I realised that if I'm the leading man in the rep, the audiences are coming to see me in this, playing this part, so I thought it was a good idea to play myself and as far as possible, that's what I've always done."

Has this policy ever made approaching any particular role difficult, if there were parallels with your real life?

"The one part ever where I had a hard time of it for this reason was in a Doomwatch programme. At the time, my father was dying and I had to leave for a couple of days to be with him. Coincidentally, the storyline for that particular episode replicated that situation and my character's father was dying, too. I said to the producer, Terence Dudley, that I couldn't do the scene until it was all over and asked if we could shoot that scene last. Terry understood and agreed to it. So, we shot that scene last. I did it, got it out of the way, and was cuddled away to my dressing room. I knew I couldn't have done it until then. Another Doomwatch that was tough for me was Tomorrow, The Rat. It was about mutant rats that had become super-intelligent and there was one scene where I had to go and find the woman who I'd been having an affair with, dead on the floor from all the rat bites. Again, I said to Terry that it was a scene I couldn't possibly do twice — and so we did it just the once. Certain things are so close that it's so difficult to recreate or live with them. I know I may sound like an over-the-top, farty old actor when I say that, but you know what I mean."

You've directed a very large number of productions for the stage. Did you ever entertain the thought of doing likewise in television or film?

"No, not really. I like the freedom of directing on stage and I've had dancers and singers, actors and technicians working with me. It used to get bloody noisy sometimes and I'd boom out, 'one voice and it's mine'! Instant silence! They all realised I knew more about most things than they did — even on the technical side. I knew what I was doing and I liked the control. On the stage, it's one man's view. If it's bad, you get the blame and if it's good, the cast get the credit. Well, there you go… That's the way it works, but it's got to be as seen in one man's eyes. What you put on is what you are seeing, and you can't blame anyone else for what happens. I like that very much. I've been very lucky with the things I've directed. I directed Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat and played the narrator a number of times and my production is still playing today in various places. I loved it."

How did you make the move into television, and can you remember anything about your early work in the medium?

"Well, I came down South and it kind of happened. I can't really remember a lot about my early television work. I did a couple of Armchair Theatre plays. Sydney Newman really had a grip on TV drama. Single plays like those were so beautifully done. They had the choice of who they wanted because they were so well thought of. They were very, very professional and I loved every moment of them. You were working with mates most of the time, too. You knew everybody and you were all aiming for the same thing."

In the mid-Sixties, you were a regular in the television series, The Mask of Janus and its sequel, The Spies. Do you feel these series were a landmark in your career?

"I think so. I look back on them with enormous gratitude. They were very important for me. At that time, I first realised just what fame means. You've got a company of regular actors including Peter Dyneley and Dinsdale Landen, and you're rehearsing at the Acton Hilton — as we called the BBC's rehearsal rooms in Acton — and recording them. You're walking about and someone might recognise you from something, but once the programmes go out on air, you just can't go out. You can't go on the Tube, can't get on a bus because suddenly it's instant recognition — 'ooh, it's 'im!'. It became very embarrassing. People would come up to you, want to talk, want autographs. I was in the Army & Navy Stores at one point, buying something, and all the girls I could see had sussed me, but the woman who was in charge of the department knew my face and thought she knew me — but of course, she didn't! We had this long conversation — I asked her how her mother was. She thanked me for asking. I enquired if her mother had the same old trouble, because all mothers have the same old trouble, don't they? So, she told me about that and said how nice it had been to see me. I said it was nice to see her too, asked her to give my love to her mother, and walked out. I stopped for a moment and saw the girls were telling the woman who I actually was. That was quite good fun."

Around the same period, you were also making guest star appearances in several filmed series — Ghost Squad, Man in a Suitcase, The Avengers, Department S and Jason King. These series are still popular nearly fifty years later. Did you feel they were anything special at the time?

"They were solid entertainment and you did them as well as you could, but you were a working actor. You were just doing a job. You didn't think it was going to last forever. It's not as grand as people think it is. I think there was a bit of prestige about them, but I'd be thinking, 'I've got a job' — and that was my motivation. What you do is go there, say the lines and don't bump into the furniture as Noel Coward said."

In the Man in a Suitcase episode Web With Four Spiders, your scenes are almost exclusively with the series star, American actor, Richard Bradford. Bradford was famously an advocate of the controversial Stanislavski 'method' approach to acting. How did you find acting opposite Bradford or other performers who would immerse themselves in their roles?

"They played their game, I played mine. I just behaved and they acted. And boy did they act! They acted all over the studio and I just stood there and did my bit. I didn't want to join in, because for me, less is more. You don't need to emote all over the stage to get the emotion across to people. It's all in the eyes, all up there, in the mind. That may sound pretentious, but it's true. If they want to act out of every orifice, fine, if it works for them. It just wasn't my scene."

You also worked with Peter Wyngarde on his two starring vehicles for Lew Grade's ITC, Department S and Jason King. What are your memories of working with him?

"Of what we did, knowing my memory, not a lot until I see them again, but working with him was a pleasure. He was a lovely, lovely man. Of course, he was gay. We all knew that. So what? But he had a country house and he called it 'Camp Cottage', which always gave me a bit of a laugh. A beautiful man, inside and out. Speak as you find. We got on terribly well together. And the ladies loved him. What a waste! I almost wish I was gay — I mean, who wouldn't?"

You also did a couple of episodes of The Avengers. In your first, You Have Just Been Murdered, you played a silent assassin, who before committing the deed, would convince his victims that they were exceptionally easy to kill… How do you approach a role without dialogue?

"Who needs dialogue? You do it with your demeanor, your body, your eyes and your face. You can terrify someone, without pulling faces or anything. You can make them think all sorts of things through the simplest of techniques. A good actor can make you feel all sorts of emotions, just with eyes and simple movements. Marcel Marceau didn't have too many lines — and he worked! You don't always need verbiage to make a point — unless you're doing Shakespeare, of course. You couldn't stand there all night as Hamlet and say 'you know what I'm thinking?' of course. It worked for me anyway, with my sort of acting — which is non-acting, really."

Later in your career, you went on to appear in series like The Professionals, Remington Steele, Bergerac and other genre shows. Do you feel that you were suited to light-hearted thrillers and were you concerned about being typecast in that sort of show?

"I wouldn't have minded at all. I'm a light-hearted sort of person! I'm not a dour type who says give me something serious to do for Christ's sake… Comedy is so much harder than doing it straight. Anyone can go on and scowl, but it's harder to do a scene with a twinkle in the eye. It's worked for me. The Bergerac I did has been shown so many times… It's always on some channel somewhere. People at the club I go to know the dialogue in that episode more than I ever did. I played a villainous businessman on Jersey and there's a scene where I'm in an inflatable armchair in a swimming pool. We were filming and the inflatable got a puncture. I'm saying my lines and slowly going down like the Titanic! Good times…"

Doomwatch is probably the series for which you are best remembered today. It was a popular series, often uncompromising and challenging. Did you enjoy working on the series and did you realise then just how ahead of its time it was?

"It was a total delight. The creator, Kit Pedler, was a genius. Doomwatch was science fact, totally science fact. Obviously, we told stories, but they were always based on what could and often did happen in the fullness of time. I can remember one where we had a man out in space at the same time as an American astronaut was actually zooming around up there. We'd do a scene, then go down and put the radio on and listen to what was going on. It was practically happening at a parallel to what Kit had written — and then our one died and we got a bit worried. Was this an indication of what was going to happen to the real one? Of course, it didn't happen and he was alright, but that was very close to reality. Kit Pedler saw so far ahead in some of the things that he did, he was practically clairvoyant. A brilliant mind… I trusted him implicitly — in fact, we all did. He was a lovely, lovely man. Very clever and very nice. You felt safe in his hands. We had a very strong team too — John Paul, Robert Powell, Joby Blanchard and others. Doomwatch was a joy — and that really was when you couldn't go out in public! Sure, it was nice to be well known — of course it was nice! People often say that they get so bored with being recognised — not me. I was delighted!"

Did the attention ever turn nasty or unpleasant?

"Only about one per cent of the time. I've always treated everybody I met as a friend. You get what you give in life, I say. It's always seemed to work for me, and that's how I've been through life. I've not had many confrontations at all."

Dr John Ridge, your character in Doomwatch, had what would today be called a character arc. It developed throughout the series, culminating in Ridge becoming mentally unhinged and threatening the world with phials of anthrax. The series creators, Kit Pedler and Gerry Davis, distanced themselves from this storyline, claiming it had moved too far from the series intent. Do you remember the controversy and how did you view these developments?

"There was conflict between Terry Dudley and the writers at that time. I think the storyline went a little beyond credibility. It was leaning a bit more towards Doctor Who than Doomwatch really, and I do remember thinking, that's it, it's going to go into fairyland quite soon. When people run out of ideas, they start looking for hooks to hang things on and that's what they did. I was so proud of what we'd done in Doomwatch that I didn't want to be involved with something that might be going a little bit under-par."

Despite that, the storyline prompted your face to be emblazoned across the cover of Radio Times magazine. How was it going into the local newsagent's that week?

"It felt marvellous. I mean, can you imagine, walking in and there you are, everywhere. It's got to feel good, hasn't it? Let's be honest. It was lovely. A bit of a shock to the system, but part of the game. You get lucky, you get the front of the Radio Times once in a while. Not many people have done that. I did once get a letter from Who's Who, asking if I wanted to be listed in their publication. I jokingly sent them a letter back. I couldn't resist asking them, why, why?"

Shortly after the series finished, a feature film of Doomwatch was produced, but your colleagues and yourself were relegated to cameo roles. How did this come about and did you find it a disappointing experience?

"I didn't want to do it. I hadn't seen a script or anything like that, but I didn't think it would work. I was actually working around about that time, in any case, so I said I couldn't possibly do it. They then came back and offered me silly money to be in it. Not long after, I realised that we'd been shafted. They'd cast Ian Bannen — a lovely man, who I liked very much — to play what was basically my part. It cost them… but I was ashamed that I gave in to the money. I should just have said no, because it was a terrible film — a really crap film. But I did. No, not one of my most favourite episodes. We were shafted, basically."

After the first year of Doomwatch, you won the role of John Steed in the stage production of The Avengers. Was this a role that you were particularly pleased to get?

"I was totally delighted to get the role. However, when they asked me to do it, I made a point of ringing Patrick Macnee, not least because Pat is a great friend of mine. I was thinking that there might have been something devious going on. Were they trying to blackmail Pat into accepting the role, using me against him? Were they saying to him that if he wouldn't do it, we can easily get someone to take the role off you — we don't really need you. I was concerned because, after all, it was his show. So I rang him and explained the situation. 'I just couldn't do it,' he said. 'It's too energetic for me, so do it with my blessing and thank you so much for ringing.' So I did it… and Pat was right, it was a pretty energetic show. But Patrick Macnee — what a hard act to follow…"

Did the production turn out quite as you had expected?

"No it didn't. It could have been fantastic, but it was sabotaged from the inside. Had I been able to direct it as well as play in it, it would have run for a couple of years, I promise you. So many things went wrong. I remember pushing that Bentley off stage at one point, when it didn't work, and there was a sofa that was designed to make people disappear through it. I remember saying that it could be very dodgy and one night, Jeremy Lloyd got stuck halfway through it. So, I went down and sat in front of him. I told him to keep still. Most of the audience didn't realise… I'm sitting there and he's hiding behind me, trying to work his way through the back of the sofa! Then, in several performances, the parachute prop came down and got stuck halfway. It would have been so easy to fix those problems, to make them work. I know all about the stage, presentation, lighting and everything and I knew after four days with the director, who shall remain nameless, that we were going to get screwed up — and screwed up we got. We were carrying too much on our shoulders. You weren't only aware of what you were doing and what you were trying to present, but you had your eyes going around wondering what was going to go wrong next."

Would you agree perhaps that the ten days you had in Birmingham was too short a preparation time before the big 'off' in London's West End?

"Totally! Not long enough. We couldn't possibly have got the thing together in that time. If I'd been directing, I'd have thrown the furniture about a bit and would have got it right. It needed time but they'd booked us in and allowed us just this tiddly running-in period in Birmingham — and I knew then that we were on a duffer. It was like a car that was half finished. Are the gears going to work? The brakes? You're not quite sure. We've not tested that, no, we've not done that either. It was chaotic. I was disappointed, but I sort of expected it really. The flow of the piece was being interrupted all the time by things going wrong. That's my opinion. I think my performance was alright, but then I would think that! But we just kept getting hitches, hold ups, things going wrong. You could feel it coming…"

How do you think the play would have improved and evolved had it have had a longer run?

"Well, it wouldn't have had a longer run the way it was. Had it have been improved in production and everything was running right, it could have run for as long as it was viable to keep it running. It was actually a good fun show with a decent script, but it's like a stand-up going on stage and having audience members falling out of the balcony every ten minutes, or having the microphone or the lighting failing on them… They're not going to get many laughs with all that happening. You're always waiting for the next bomb to go off. I know I was, wondering what was going to happen next and there I am, trying to play John Steed! It wasn't easy."

The show received some scathing press. How did the cast and yourself react to this criticism?

"You know what? I never used to read notices until I'd been in something for about three or four weeks. Honestly, with my hand on my heart, I've never read a notice about the Avengers show. I know you've mentioned a couple of rotters, but fine. They didn't affect me because I didn't know. I don't tend to believe them if they say I'm good, any more than I do if they say I'm rotten! No, it wouldn't have worried me. I think every critic's column should have a little by-line that says, 'one man's opinion'. There was probably a lot of, 'who does he think he is, trying to follow Pat?' — and that's understandable because Pat's a lovely man who gave lovely performances as Steed. So, in a way, I was on a hiding to nothing before I even started, wasn't I? You think of great performances people have given and someone has to try and follow them, and you know they'll never be considered as good as the original."

It works the same way with James Bond, doesn't it? Whoever comes along and plays the part, they'll always be compared to Sean Connery, won't they?

"That's right. Actually, there's a story here. I nearly got the James Bond role in 1971 and missed out on it, unluckily, because Sean came back and decided to do one more! I did the audition and got a round of applause from everybody in the studio. They were all very pleased and things looked very positive. Cubby Broccoli was talking terms with my agent — and then one day, he telephoned me. 'Sorry, Simon. Sean's coming back,' he said. I understood. Connery was Bond and if he wanted to do it again, they really couldn't turn him down in favour of Simon Oates, could they? Sean gave his money to the Highlands and the Islands — and why not — his choice. When the next one came up, I was working, so I lost Bond — I couldn't do it. Mind you, the way my life's gone, playing Bond would have changed the course of it and I wouldn't be where I am now. In the end, I'm grateful that I didn't do it. I've had a smashing career and I've got the loveliest lady in the world. I'm very happy."

A few years later, you were back in The Avengers fold, in The New Avengers. What memories do you have of working on that one?

"Not many! Sometimes, things that I've been in have been on the television and people ask me how it ends. I can never remember… I've seen programmes on telly where I've done scenes with people I can't even remember having met! The mind's going… You know how it is when you get to twenty-seven… It starts falling away, doesn't it? You've got a lot of people coming through, you're doing lots of different things and then years later, you think, I know that person… worked with him, worked with her, but in what? I've done quite a body of work in my time, so it's not surprising that I can't remember all of it, really? But going back to The New Avengers, what I do remember are the people — Pat, Joanna, Gareth… I like those people so much. It was a joy. I loved it."

Another string to your bow is that you've done stand-up comedy, something that probably not many Avengers or Doomwatch fans are aware of! How did you get into that area of showbusiness?

"Well, it was fairly early in my career. I'd done some television and was quite well known, but I'd always wanted to be in a position where I could do it on my own — and apart from doing solo stage shows, I thought I'd like to have a go at comedy. So I worked out an act that would run about ten minutes, with various jokes and sections where I'd go from this subject to that subject to another — and my friend Arthur White and I went off to The Deuragon Arms in Hackney. It was a well-known pub and Lenny Bruce had compered there. They had open nights where anyone could get up and have a go. I took a look and there was a comic on stage, dying a death. I went straight to the loos and threw up! I came back and said to Arthur that I thought I was really getting the feel of it now, and that when we came back next time, I'd do it. Arthur took me to one side and told me that I was on next! So the compere says, 'Ladies and gentlemen! You've seen him here many times before…' — you lying…, I thought… 'Charlie Barnett, the Cockney Comic!' So I'm up there, and I get going… I've got a pint in one hand and a cigar in the other. I'm doing my routine and I'm getting lots of laughs and lots of applause. I was thinking that this was a bit of alright and suddenly I noticed Arthur at the back, waving madly at me. I'm a bit confused now. I didn't think I was doing that badly. I thought I was going down well. Anyway, I brought it to an end, got a nice round of applause and went off to see Arthur. 'What did I do?' I asked. 'Forty minutes!!!' he replied, exasperated. I had been up there for forty minutes. The ten minute act I'd worked out in my front room had greatly expanded, what with the punters coming in with their lines, and so on and I just hadn't noticed. There had been other acts waiting to go on, too! I did a lot more in the pubs, got noticed and then I was booked to do Sunday night stage shows and I ended up working with Dorothy Squires at the London Palladium a couple of times. I also did a little tour with The Rolling Stones. I just loved it. There were no lines to learn as such doing stand-up — you've got them in your mind. You know where you're going. If the audience says something, you follow that hare and then something follows from that."

Are there ways of learning the craft of stand-up or is it a case of finding your own way?

"Like we've said about acting — if you can do it, you can do it. It ain't clever. If you've got that gift — and it is a gift — you can do it. You can't learn to be a stand-up. You can watch people, but you have to have the gift. Geniuses like Paul Merton and Ken Dodd have it. Actually Ken Dodd… The greatest moment in my theatrical life! I went to see Ken with a friend of mine, Ross Taylor, who wrote Charlie Girl. He did lots and lots of work and was very well known. Now, I'd seen in Ken in shows and even tried to nick his material… only you can't nick his material because it's so 'him'. It doesn't really work for anyone else. Well, we went round to the dressing room, and Doddy's there. Ross introduced me and before he'd even finished speaking, Doddy called me over. 'Simon!' he said. 'Yes?' I replied. 'Call me Doddy and come over here. Do you mind if I have my photograph taken with you?' — now how do you top that in anything you do in the business? What a lovely man. That just blew my mind — the fact that he actually knew me. You don't think about that, do you? 'Do you mind if…!' I thought, I'd have paid you for this!"

"Another great moment… I was doing a tour and was at the Theatre Royal, Brighton, and had the number one dressing room. When I was in the Army — I was in the Intelligence Corps — I used to go there and I saw some of great actors there. I'd seen Paul Schofield and John Gielgud, and they had had that dressing room. It's got its own loo, you know, a wooden seat loo — and I went in there one night and thought, this is where Gielgud and Schofield sat! Another magic moment — a picture with Doddy and a dump where the they had sat! That's it, isn't it? Follow that with the sea lions!"

You've retired from showbusiness now. How do you view the industry as it is today, now that you're back to being a member of the audience?

"As I'm not in the industry today, I'm not really in a position to make comments, but what my wife Jaki and I are really impressed about at the moment is the standard of acting on British television. I think it's got to be the highest standard in the world. Even small parts in things are so beautifully done that I just sit back with admiration. Total admiration because they're all so bloody good. And I'm delighted to see that."

Do you find it disappointing that so much television is lost or missing today from the era when you were most prolific in the medium?

"I think it's a shame but there are bigger things in life than losing bits of television series. You have to question the mentality, of course, of whoever it was who said they needed the space, or that that programmes didn't need to be kept. So many great programmes were just wiped. Heads needed looking at, really. Not for my stuff in particular, of course, but for the business as a whole. So many people like to watch old movies, after all. I think it's a great shame. It's almost like saying that this Rolling Stones record has been out for a while, so let's get rid of it and we'll stick out something new instead. It's the same sort of principle really — people didn't just wipe famous music recordings. So… why? That's not a personal thing, it's just a general view of how the business operated in those days."

Looking back on your career, what would you pick out as the highlights, the roles that meant the most to you?

"Obviously, I liked Doomwatch for what it did, and I enjoyed working on The Spies and The Mask of Janus. Many other things, too. But my favourite was definitely the stage show, Privates on Parade. That was beautiful. I played Captain Terri Dennis and I absolutely, totally, totally loved it. I would say that if I wanted to be remembered for anything, that'd be it. Yeah. That was me."

"But I've been so, so lucky. I've not had any disasters. I don't accept The Avengers as a personal disaster because as I say, it could have been avoided. I was stuck in the middle of it, but you can only do your best and try to pull it out of the mire. Had we have had more time, it wouldn't have gone into the mire in the first place, but there you go. It was like being the Captain of the Titanic. You can arrange the deck chairs as best you can, but it doesn't make much difference when you're sinking."

"No, I've had a life to die for. I've had ups and downs personally, just like anyone, but I couldn't have asked for a more satisfying life than the one I've had in theatre, television and film. I've been so lucky and I'm so grateful to have had the opportunity."

At the time of this interview in November 2008, Simon was undergoing treatment for a long-term serious illness. Sadly, Simon succumbed to cancer a mere six months later on Wednesday 20th May 2009. Alys and I were devastated to hear the news — Simon was a delightful, witty and above all, generous and kind man, and the world is worse off by far without him. Our heartfelt condolences to his wife Jaki and their family and many friends. The day we spent with them both was a highlight of our year and we will remember that day and Simon and Jaki with great fondness and admiration for many years to come.

Interview conducted by Alan Hayes and Alys Hayes
Edited for publication by Alan Hayes
Digital Art by Alan Hayes

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